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| From: | Van | Oct-29 12:46 am |
| To: | ALL |
(1 of 10) | | | | 4021.1 | |
| i was shocked that Bishop Spong would acclaim the morality and right of suicidality for old people who had lived well. it almost appeared that at the end of his last book, he announced his decision to depart from us. |
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| | | | | 4021.2 in reply to 4021.1 | |
What a distortion to what he said. If you are going to respond, do it honestly! Even a cursory glance of that paragraph clearly describes the dignity of understanding that life can end in a less traumatic and very biblical context. Basically it could be read to say, "I want to stop the heroic interventions that God never provided for on His own, but are the result of a heartless medical science which man has developed. Rather, because I am terminally ill, I will take the same treatment that was available during Christ's sojourn on earth, a hospice setting with oil and the laying on of hands. I will depart this world in a peaceful, spiritual manner rather than wired up and intubated into the morphine induced state that surely God never intended for me. Think about it. |
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| | | | | 4021.3 in reply to 4021.1 | |
Van, I don't think that Spong advocates suicide. What I do think is that when one goes to a nursing home and sees the patients, I wonder what kind of waiting in line for death to come is that? Remember. . . we don't save lives we prolong them and in what state? What kind of life is it when in our senior years we are drugged to death? Are the drugs we take cures or are they just covering up what really ails us? Most of the time it is loneliness. So many questions regarding both these issues and yet, the right to die seems to be off the table. Isn't my life - "my life?" When I can no longer choose to make the decision, I hope my family will make it for me. It is a sad thing when someone is so alone, surrounded by people. We have become a society of frustrated, uncaring, "bury your head in the sand," "pill popping," people. The things we care most about seem to be about "feeling good," and "stay young looking." Just watch the TV commercials or read the ads in the daily paper - you will see what I mean. And all the while, these corporations are laughing all the way to the bank. Even the churches are guilty. After the sermon about "casting your cares upon the Lord" the lonely elderly go back to their homes, microwave their TV dinners, and plop themselves down in front of the TV to live through another week. Pets seem to offer more compassion for them then people. We are so advanced in many areas, but death and dying doesn't seem to be one of them. Many cultures from the past had it right, but we tend to call them pagans. Nowadays we don't get it! We have become a people of greed, feel good, and want. It's easy for me to sit here and type this as I sit in my comfortable chair, in my comfortable house, in pretty good health with not too many worries. My pride tells me not to bother any of my family with my problems because they have their own - but how did I come to think this way? The things in life that really matter the most we cannot buy - and yet we think if we save up our money, we will be all set when we near the end of our lives. I don't want to take away from the good and compassion some of us show. There are advancements in senior care, but someday we all will be there, and I wonder just what we will expect or think about. Will it be, "I wonder when the nurse's aid is coming as I can't hold it much longer?" Judith |
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| From: | viddy | Oct-29 9:14 am |
| To: | Van |
(4 of 10) | | | | 4021.4 in reply to 4021.1 | |
| I believe that a very close reading and consideration for Spongs statements on end of life decisions would be verymuch considered if a proper application of it is applied. Viddy |
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| | | | | 4021.5 in reply to 4021.3 | |
| I agree with everything you say, Judith, and even know each aspect from caring for the elder and being close to Bishop's Spong's age myself. You ask good questions and make valid observations regarding our culture. I don't pretend to have the answers or solutions, for others or for myself. I just hope that when the time comes I won't resort to suicide, for the sake of my children and grandchildren, as well as myself. |
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| From: | Artie | Oct-29 2:34 pm |
| To: | Van unread |
(6 of 10) | | | | 4021.6 in reply to 4021.5 | |
| I don't think that requesting no extraordinary methods be used to sustain my life (a ventilator, for instance) is suicide. It is allowing me a natural death. |
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| | | | | 4021.7 in reply to 4021.3 | |
Hi, Judith -
You wrote: "When I can no longer choose to make the decision, I hope my family will make it for me."
Please do not leave such an important task to your family! Call a nearby hospital right now and ask them to send you a LIVING WILL. It is always free for the asking! You can fill in all the blanks and then make copies for your doctor, your next of kin, the hospital and anyone else who might be interested in your wishes. (I have come to the conclusion that maybe having one in the glove compartment isn't such a bad idea!)
Everyone in my family over the age of 18 has made out a Living Will. It is where we personally remind the hospital that we do not want our dying to be prolonged and that any of our organs that might be deemed usable are to go to those in need. (Burn units can even use skin to help patients heal.)
I know that some people do not want to donate any of their organs and want to be kept around for as long as possible, no matter what it takes or how much it costs. If that is their wish, so be it. But I certainly don't want someone like that going to the courts to be named my GUARDIAN so I can suffer as long as s/he thinks is appropriate.
About twenty (20) years ago, I decided I'd had enough pain and misery in my life and I don't want anyone to feel s/he has to argue with me about that, just because s/he believes I have not endured enough suffering here on Earth and will therefore have to spend more time in Purgatory! These are not my beliefs and it is no one else's call to second guess God - about anything!!! I'd much rather take my chances with my Creator than some nitwit who has gone into the God Business because it pays so well!
Best regards!
Metoo/Carol
PS - Don't forget to call the hospital so you can make out your Living Will ASAP! It wouldn't hurt to ask everyone you know if they have Living Wills, too, and if they don't, ask them why not! |
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| | | | | 4021.8 in reply to 4021.1 | |
Our Rector recently wrote of the sacredness of human life opposing 'Dignitas'. We should also consider whether the medical profession, in its determination to preserve human life at all costs, isn’t as much in danger of playing ‘God’, as those who are prepared to assist death to take place peacefully.
Why are we so afraid of dying? Why must all possible means be brought to play in order to avoid - or at the least postpone - the inevitable when life has become insufferable? And there is, of course, a difference between palliative care and deliberate termination of life.
If we are honest, there comes a moment when the relief of pain may well not just allow death to occur, but may even bring it forward. I believe this has been quietly practiced over many years. Is this playing ‘God’?
My Mother’s prayer was ‘O God, by sudden death deliver me’; she knew enough about nursing and hospitals to dread being kept alive by all the ‘skills’ of the medical profession if she felt her time to pass on had come.
Death wasn’t avoided by Jesus! Our Christian faith asserts a belief in the resurrection – not just for Jesus, but for the human spirit. Life may indeed be a sacred trust given by 'God'. Death is also a 'God'-given gift, and we should be wary of becoming arrogant by trying desperately to pretend it is an unmitigated evil. |
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| | | | | 4021.9 in reply to 4021.7 | |
I already have a Living Will. But isn't this something. When my husband died instantly in our backyard, I called 911 about 20 minutes later, as I waited for my son to come over, which he did. When the EMS got here, I knew he was already dead, but they proceeded to work on him jamming that tube down his throat, etc. That upset me more than him actually dying. Anyway, I told the technicians to stop as he wouldn't have wanted to be resuscitated as I have a form that says so. I ran in the house to get it and brought it back out and showed it to them. Her response was they couldn't honor it because it was drawn up in Michigan. I am in South Carolina. I was so upset over that and did some investigating later. Evidently it is a "law" in SC that they have to work on the person for 20 minutes.
Bull. I knew he was dead and they did too. My kids know my request regarding my death. Cremation and no service. My life is my celebration. Judith |
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| | | | | 4021.10 in reply to 4021.8 | |
I am in the process of reading Eternal Life" for the second time, because one read-through just isn't enough. This book hits me spiritually and professionally because I work as an RN in an inpatient hospice.
I deal with a wide variety of families and their dying relative, so I have seen a lot. If one of you'all calls me an angel of mercy, I will barf. Compared with working in the hospital and with medicare homecare, hospice nursing is an oasis in the desert. Most hospice nurses have been nurses for a long time. Sure we have a challenging role in dealing with the families, dealing with the physiology of death and the ornerous task of documenting all the controlled drugs we use and the constantly increasing medicare paperwork(80-90% of our patients are medicare), but I love hospice nursing.
My family had a macabre "Living Will" gathering several years ago where all 7 of us, my parents and all five children signed the "Living Will"papers. Physician assisted suicide is available in Oregon but you have to have lived there two years. I want to be able to commit suicide when I am like one of the patients who is currently on our unit. Details of this description are changed so much and several patients are being combined because I don't want to violate HIPPA(the government regulation to guard confidentiality of medical information).
Mr. John Doe is a48 year old male who has gotten the double whammy as far as diseases go. His MS renders him bedridden and incontinent of bladder and bowel while ... will need to do more thinking about this.
Kay |
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