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| From: | seeker | Oct-7 1:19 pm |
| To: | ALL |
(1 of 7) | | | | 3999.1 | |
| I suppose this is for folks still attending the Episcopal Church (like me). I don't think I am quite all the way where Spong is, he makes good points. I just finished Eternal Life and am now reading Lee Strobel, the Case for the Real Jesus. I want to see how that book measures up knowing the stuff I know now from Spong, Ehrman, and Borg. AT any rate back to my question. What do you think of when you go thru the Liturgy at church. All the prayers address a theistic deity and we do confess our sins. Just curious if you are reading Spong how you think about these items. I can say everything and be okay with it although I may not be sure I believe everything I know my spiritual ancestors did. At any rate thoughts on this or Lee Strobel are greatly welcome. |
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| | | | | 3999.2 in reply to 3999.1 | |
Seeker, What do I think of the liturgy in church? - I don't anymore. In fact, I don't pray the Lord's Prayer anymore either. My question to that is Our Father which are in heaven, etc. Where on earth is heaven? Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come - hasn't it already? Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven - again where's heaven? Etc. etc. The worst part for me all the time (60 years) of attending church it really griped me during the liturgy before communion. I never could understand, "that we are sinful and unclean." It didn't make sense to say that when I believed that God was within me and was taught that. Contradiction? You bet! How could we be so sinful and unclean if God dwelled in us? Some of the prayer seemed so "wanting " - even when our presidents end their speeches with "God bless America." God has richly blessed America. Why not ask for blessings for some of the third world countries. I may sound bitter, but I'm not. I'm just a lot more happy and at peace since I don't attend church. I do miss the camaraderie of people, but I belong to many outside groups to satisfy that. For 20 years of my life I just about lived in the church (Lutheran). My husband was a Lutheran minister, but he never could satisfy my questions with the right answers. Thank goodness for Spong. In his latest book I cannot believe what he has to say because almost all of it is exactly how I believe or feel. There are a few variations, but not many. I'm almost to a point in my thinking that I wonder how so many people can be so hoodwinked into believing what the Christian church teaches. If members truly studied and knew the scriptures, anyone with any amount of intelligence would not believe literally what is said in the Bible, especially after knowing how it was written. I'm not saying that there isn't good wisdom in the Bible - there is. After studying it for so long I can see where the contradictions are and some of the stories sort of repeated only with different names to the characters. Sorry! Never heard of Lee Strobel. Borg, Campbell, Armstrong, Tillich, and a few modern day theologians like Harry T. Cook, and Richard Rhem and a few more. As the centuries go by, I think many of them have the same ideas, only they word their books differently. Welcome to the forum. Judith |
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| From: | 888 | Oct-7 9:56 pm |
| To: | seeker unread |
(3 of 7) | | | | 3999.3 in reply to 3999.1 | |
Dear Seeker, I think people go along with traditional prayers because they can't express what they feel and it's the next best thing. I learned the Lord's Prayer in grammar school (Catholic) and at such a young age I somehow found comfort in it. Don't ask me why. To this day, I find myself saying it even though I don't buy why it was written and followed. I don't buy that Jesus said it's THE prayer of all prayers unless he knew not to take it literally, but instead spiritually with eyes closed and as a grounding base for spiritual expression. Much as the sounds one makes in yoga. As to the juxtaposition to Spong's writings....I don't know. Kath |
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| | | | | 3999.4 in reply to 3999.1 | |
To me Lee Strobel comes accross as dishonest. Have you seen the debates he hosts in his show "Faith Under Fire"? Both before and after the debates he always gives a short speech to "prepare" (read: to close the minds of) his evangelical audience against any liberal views presented in the debates. Strobel strongly fears his audience might lose faith in fundamentalist nonsense, so he primes his audience before the debates, and additionally reinforces the evangelical position after the debate. That's why "Faith Under Fire" could never be considered a fair show. The debates are never balanced, as Strobel himself props the conservative debaters' views with his own additional comments. If you wish to verify what I am saying, just look up the video "Must Christianity Change Or Die? - Lee Strobel - Faith Under Fire" on YouTube. It's a two part video. It's supposed to be a debate between Albert Mohler & John Shelby Spong, but it turns out to be a debate between Mohler AND Strobel against Spong, who is never given a chance to rebut Strobel's particular comments. Before the dabate, Strobel actually says to the audience "I hope you come to your own conclusions...", how hypocritical! At the end, when Strobel argues that he "doesn't think Bishop Spong could be more wrong", he makes a number of questionable claims regarding the authority of scripture, as well as supposed evidence from the natural sciences and archaeology supporting such authority, that Spong is never given a chance to refute. How honest is that? When the moderator is biased, and deliberately attempts influence the audience with his bias, there is no fairness to the debate. Just another great example of the typical intellectual dishonesty so prevalent in conservative evangelical circles. |
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| | | | | 3999.5 in reply to 3999.4 | |
| I saw those videos last week and thought the same thing! I thought Spong was great and that Mohler looked grouchy and irritable! I got through the intro and first chapter of Lee Strobel's "The Case For The Real Jesus" and had to quit. It just seems biased. I bought one of his sources book Craig Evan's Fabricating Jesus. He is a leading evangelical scholar and is recognized by Borg and Crossan although he disagrees with them I'm sure. It is sort of the evangelical version of Misquoting Jesus. Dr Evans was even in class with Ehrman for a year. If he comes across as biased at least it is a scholar not an attorney! I pretty much believe there is a God and that Jesus is a window and is probably my best window. I don't have to take everything literally and try to get the spirit of the Jesus message. I gotta have something to live by! I love Bart Ehrman so this book will be interesting. I'll keep Seeking! I just know I don't care to see or read Lee Strobel. I feel like I'm watching Hannity or something when I see him! |
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| | | | | 3999.6 in reply to 3999.1 | |
Well Seeker,
An area ELCA church which used to have a pastor who was well read in Tillich, etc. and a more honest approach to many topics and valued 'not checking your mind at the door' is now doing courses on 'Case for Christ' with Lee Strobel, Evangelism and Witnessing etc. and several folks are participating in an anti-GLBT group.
Oh, pardon me, is that the dust from my tires as I squeal out of the parking lot? I'm afraid to visit the Anglican church because I don't know which one I will find . . . and frankly, go through a lot of mental gymnastics to accept the ancient creeds, hymns and liturgy as products of their time witnessing to something greater . . . I love to hear the magnificent soaring masses and I love the dear old souls for whom this represented the best and highest. Just very sad the emperor has no clothes.
'annie' |
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| | | | | 3999.7 in reply to 3999.6 | |
But I would think the Emporer does have clothes! The clothes are love, compassion, mercy. They have just thrown a big overcoat on to go with it, lol. I was so excited when ELCA passed their sexuality statement and allowed committed same sex partners to be clergy. They are on the reformation road, I would encourage you to switch to another ELCA church or attend an Episcopal church. I guess I don't mind the mental gymnastics at least for now. I don't want to just go it alone, I enjoy a spiritual community. I enjoy the connection with the past also.
"Fabricating Jesus" has been great so far. He does state if you have unrealistic Biblical literalist expectations you will be disappointed by scholarship. However, he also states that scholars can be overly critical until it is pure skepticism veiled as scholarship. I think I agree with that too. It is hard to figure anything out, lol. Who do I believe. I will keep trudging on. I think there is something bigger than me, I think people don't choose to be homosexual and if they have the guts to want to be married they should be able to. I think Jesus was way ahead of his time and stood for the best humanity can conjur up and that that is related to God. Its a great journey, I have to occupy my mind somehow. At least I dont' think everyone is going to hell now, lol.
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