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The Googleverse
A SiliconValley.com Roundtable
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 Day 3: Google as a network (Reply-Only Folder) -  Google as a networknotify me whenever anyone posts in this discussionSubscribe  
 
From: Guest 12/7/2005 4:15 am 
To: ALL  (1 of 11) 
 3.1 
Today, we'd like to hear your thoughts on Google as a network. Ah, yes, all those massive server farms, all that dark fiber, the secret shipping containers packed with processors and storage, the reported millions to be spent on telecom equipment, the speculative "Google Box" that would bring it all into the home. Is Google merely shedding peering costs and looking for distribution advantages or might it build out what effectively would be an alternate Internet? And if it ends up controlling a big pipe into the home, will it want to offer the Big Bundle -- delivery and management of all the home data, voice, video and entertainment services?
 
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From: J_Battelle  12/7/2005 4:08 pm 
To: Guest  (2 of 11) 
 3.2 in reply to 3.1 
I'd defer to Om on this, but it's clear that a core asset is the tech platform, and all that bandwidth. So the question to me is one of *will* - as in, does the company have the will to get into these businesses and see them through. That is unknown...
 
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From: R_Skrenta  12/7/2005 4:08 pm 
To: Guest  (3 of 11) 
 3.3 in reply to 3.1 

 

Google’s cost savings on hardware have historically given them a competitive advantage.  In their early days they stuck to budget price/performance hardware machines, which compared to the high-end servers their competitors used gave them a 10X cost advantage in terms of CPU cycles per search.  Sometimes a programmer will invent a new algorithm that improves search relevance, but if the cost to deploy the algorithm is too high, the algorithm can’t be used.  Google could afford to spend more machine CPU for each user and this helped them give users better results.

 

Their storage costs were cheap too, which let Gmail offer far more storage space than their competitors inititally.

 

Now, with hundreds of thousands of servers powering their service, there is a huge capital barrier to entry for would-be competitors.  A few programmers won’t be able to out-Google Google with a hodge-podge of PCs anymore.  The costs of entry into the search space have gone way up.

 

If Google is assembling their own worldwide network backbone, maybe aside from any possible consumer applications such as launching their own ISP, they’ve simply decided that using this resource is key to their success, that there are cost and strategic reasons they want to control it.

 

Crawling the net is expensive...  Consider that every n days Google essentially copies the entire web onto their servers.  The entire web needs to move over network pipes into the Google datacenters.  If they want to have a fresher index, they need to crawl more often.  This is a lot of bandwidth…cheaper bandwidth means they can have a fresher index for less money.  What if Google’s crawl costs were 1/10th their competitors?

 

 
 
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From: sbauer  12/7/2005 4:47 pm 
To: Guest  (4 of 11) 
 3.4 in reply to 3.1 
We are already seeing the telcos (and cablecos) looking to control what comes over their pipes (control being the way they see to increase their profits.) Creating an alternative network - or even giving the appearance that they might create one - gives Google a lot of leverage here.
 
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From: S_Arnold  12/7/2005 4:22 pm 
To: Guest  (5 of 11) 
 3.5 in reply to 3.1 

My study "The Google Legacy" touches on this topic. Three key points: [a] most people when learning about the scope of the existing Google engineering can't grasp what Google has built, is operating, and scaling; [b] experts may see speed as a function of money, not an outcome of hardware and software engineering; and [c] finance-oriented individuals understand the bottomline benefit Google's operating efficiencies deliver yet lack hard data to put these numbers in context.

What's the result? Two examples fall readily to hand. First, at least one Yahoo engineer at the Yale forum is convinced that Google can be matched and beaten. The only hitch in the git along is that Yahoo is not a homogeneous computing platform. There are some cost issues ahead for Yahoo as it makes an effort to normalize AND deliver new services. Yahoo has grown by acquisitions. Google buys companies and shoehorns their functions into Google data centers. Elegant, no. Efficient, better than creating a fruit salad of technology. Second, Microsoft has billions of dollars and legions of super-wizards. The needed job of getting Windows Advanced Server to tiptoe around the message traffic bottlenecks AND keep the legacy agenda is more than a hard day's work. In fact, turbocharging clusters of servers running Advanced Server is a reasonably big job. So, in these two examples, both Yahoo and Microsoft are in the process of addressing their different system issues. I know that both will catch up -- at some point in the future. The key point, of course, is that Google's comparatively homogeneous system has good speed (2,000 megabyte per second reads, according to one engineer familiar with Google benchmarking), will benefit from bigger pipes (the Gildereseque dark fiber metaphor) among its data centers, is up and running, and undergoing incremental enhancements (I watch my GMail storage click upwards each time I check my Google Mail). When the number two (Yahoo) and number three (MSN) catch up, number one will probably be keeping a reasonable technical lead. More of this antithetical thinking appears in my study. See www.infonortics.com for a table of contents and a sample chapter.

S. Arnold from Harrod's Creek, Kentucky, 7 45 am Eastern


Edited 12/7/2005 5:41:34 PM ET by JMURRELL1
 
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From: C_Li  12/7/2005 6:11 pm 
To: Guest  (6 of 11) 
 3.6 in reply to 3.1 

When I first saw "network" as the topic, I immediately thought ad and consumer communications network, not necessarily the computing guts of their service. And I still think about it that way -- all of that computing strength and access to fiber will most likely be used for applications.

And it's not just for data, voice, and video. Thinking about Google Base and the opportunity for hosted applications, Google will need significant processing power and bandwidth to support these hosted services.

 
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From: G_Godhwani  12/7/2005 8:14 pm 
To: ALL  (7 of 11) 
 3.7 in reply to 3.6 

When I first saw “network” as the topic, my take was more about the value in the digital assets of the network rather than the physical assets.

IMHO: It’s the Platform, Stupid.

What really creates sustainable value is how rich the platform (search technology, content & data, applications & tools) is, and how vibrant the ecosystem (end-users, content publishers, developers, channel partners) is in which everyone takes part.

However, Google’s DNA of secrecy could be their Achilles heel. Google is churning out a lot of great (and not so great) technology to build their platform, but so far they’ve been missing the boat on telling people what the vision looks like – and in the process, they’ve been doing a better job at scaring off prospective channel partners than doing platform evangelism.

So while Google is trying to build out proprietary physical network assets, and Microsoft plays catch up shifting their desktop assets to the web, Yahoo actually has a decent shot at catching both of them by surprise – they’re the only company really delivering on Web 2.0 evangelism right now.

Ultimately, no matter how talented & smart Google is, no matter how cool their products are, they will still have to convince other developers & partners their platform is a place where everyone can win… not just the people inside the Googleplex.

-Gautam Godhwani
www.SimplyHired.com

 
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From: D_Vise  12/7/2005 8:16 pm 
To: Guest  (8 of 11) 
 3.8 in reply to 3.1 

Google's network of hundreds of thousands of personal computers on steroids gives it the most computing power of any enterprise, according to Stanford President and Google board member John Hennessy. The dark fiber Google has been buying is for slashing peering costs per an edict from Larry Page, I'm told by Googlers. Larry has a penchant for saving money through dark fiber and looking for ways to reduce the cost of electrical power, another major consideration in the equation for Google as it deploys computers in data centers around the world.

Google's free wireless Internet service in Mtn. View and elsewhere is not just about about increasing Internet access to increase the use of Google. Through technology already developed, it is designed to enable Google to profit handsomely by delivering locally targeted ads to computer and cell phone users connecting through its wireless service. This would mark a major leap forward in targeted local online advertising.

David A. Vise  

 
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From: D_Edwards  12/7/2005 10:49 pm 
To: ALL  (9 of 11) 
 3.9 in reply to 3.3 
Rich is correct about Google’s ruthless pursuit of efficiency and the cost benefits it can bring. Sergey has given public hints of the end game he has in mind. If I may quote from a fellow panelist,
Having hatched a plan to download the world's libraries and begun a research effort aimed at cataloging people's genes, Mr. Brin hungers, with the boundless appetite of a man who has obtained great success at a tender age, for the one place Google has yet to directly penetrate - your mind. "Why not improve the brain?" he muses. "Perhaps in the future, we can attach a little version of Google that you just plug into your brain."
It would surprise me if Google did not ultimately attempt to reduce the friction in every step between the current state and the desired goal. First optimize the servers, then storage, then the network and power supply, then nanotechnology, neuroscience, surgical implant techniques and, if need be, finally reform the byzantine American healthcare system to pay for it all.
 
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From: G_Price  12/8/2005 1:15 am 
To: Guest  (10 of 11) 
 3.10 in reply to 3.1 

Google recently leased more than 270,000 sq. feet in a NYC telecom carrier "hotels" where companies like BellSouth, MCI, Qwest, and Sprint are located. Why this building. One reason, cost savings.

"111 Eighth Avenue is the premier telecom and data facility in the United States," said Neal McGraw, the chief financial officer of NYC Connect LLC, which operates a facility in the building that allows tenants to connect their networks efficiently and at a low cost.

Also worth noting:

[The buildings] concentration of interconnected networks would allow Google to offer its new voice-over-Internet service, Google Talk, more efficiently and at lower cost because it would be able to connect directly to the networks of many of the world's leading telecom firms that are also housed there.
See: http://blog.searchenginewatch.com/blog/050922-103031

Re: Google Wi-Fi For Free and the local ad angle that David talks about. Absolutely agree.

This is what I wrote on 10.20 when news of the Google bid for SF was announced:

One thing is for sure, this Wi-Fi info could provide truly "local" and if required, time-sensitive search advertising if Google decided to provide ads. You're using Google Wi-Fi and hitting a tower near the 1600 block of Market Street at 11:20 am. Then, an ad appears asking you if you're interested in walking just a few steps and having lunch at the Zuni Cafe at 1658 Market St? If you make reservations via the Google Reservation and Ticket Service (just guessing about this initiative but not a bad idea, compete with Diller and IAC/Interactive ), you'll get 10% off lunch, 20% if you come between 1-2:30pm. You'll also get a Google t-shirt (some autographed by Google execs), and a chance to win a ride aboard the new NASAGOOGLE spaceship. Heck, if you're also a Google AdWords customer, they'll knock a few bucks off of your next bill. (-:

Btw, Google isn't the only company bidding for the SF deal. 17 in all. If you want to read an exec summary of GOogle's it's here:
http://blog.searchenginewatch.com/blog/txt/google_sf_rfi.doc

It includes revenue streams from selling bandwith to others and, "Google may also sell such high speed access to consumers, as well as other potential premium services."

Gary D. Price, MLIS
Librarian
Editor, ResourceShelf and DocuTicker
News Editor, Search Engine Watch
Gary Price Library Research and Internet Consulting

 
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